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db4 - Italian electrics or maybe something else?
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brian



Joined: 22 Aug 2011
Posts: 3769
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My new genuine pickup coils are in Australia and should be in the post from Ducati Brisbane to me. A fair bit cheaper than what the dealer originally quoted me at around $315.00 delivered to my door.
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'99 DB4 #104, '96 SB6 #1165, '94 DB2 J #652, '99 DB4 #088, '08 VTX1800, '93 ZXR750R M1, '95 ZXR750, '95 ZXR750 Race Bike, '94 CBR400rr NC29 Race Bike, '94 CB250, '49 BSA C10 250, '61 BSA A10 650, '89 ZXR750, '91 Ducati 851
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brian



Joined: 22 Aug 2011
Posts: 3769
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2bims wrote:
Sounds like good advice Brian on the CA cycleworks coils......cheers...still have to fit mine to the DB2 so will take mental note on that issue....although the fitment area is different on the DB2..

I see some nice shiney Carbon fibre belt covers also Brian........I've two sets of those I've fitted recently......one to the pup and the other to the DB2........On both bikes...word of warning....even though they are lighter and thinner than original plastic belt covers....and one set bought from the states...and one set bought from Europe......On fitting both of the sets the inner mouldings on the horizontal cylinder chaffed and rubbed against the mouldings, causing nice grooving and advanced wear on the belt on both bikes...thus I had to grind away with a mini dremel on both sets so that they cleared the belts when the engine was running.......its easy to tell if this is the case.......run the engine...only for a minute or so before putting all the bodywork back on...and then strip off and look for shredded pieces of rubber and marks on the outside face of the belts...and check on inside face of belt covers to see where its touching....It seems the manufacturers of where I bought from took great care in nice flat and pristine faces but the insides were a bit doggy to say the least......


I removed the covers after running a few times. No signs of rubber in the covers or an wear on the inside of the covers. These covers are a nice fit.
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'99 DB4 #104, '96 SB6 #1165, '94 DB2 J #652, '99 DB4 #088, '08 VTX1800, '93 ZXR750R M1, '95 ZXR750, '95 ZXR750 Race Bike, '94 CBR400rr NC29 Race Bike, '94 CB250, '49 BSA C10 250, '61 BSA A10 650, '89 ZXR750, '91 Ducati 851
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brian



Joined: 22 Aug 2011
Posts: 3769
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update on this one...

Long story short... i still haven't cured the original problem Crying or Very sad

I now think that i've had a number of intermittent electrical problems.

The power was dropping out all together (no dash lights or anything) on a couple occasions which turned out to be the ignition switch. I stripped it and cleaned the contacts and applied dielectric grease, also stretched the springs a little, now all good. Win.

The horizontal cylinder spark wasn't strong as the timing light would miss a beat every now and then. Since i've installed the new pickup coils and ignition coils the spark and timing light apears to be good consistant firing on the horizontal cylinder now. Win.

There's still a problem with the spark on the vertical cylinder. I've swapped igniotion coils over (coils are brand new anyway), swapped ignition modules over and the problem is still on the vertical cylinder. The good news is, now the problem is there all the time so i should be able to find the culprit. I now think the problem is in the harness, the wiring between the ignition module and the coil.

I have to go back to work tomorrow but will have another crack on my next days off.
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'99 DB4 #104, '96 SB6 #1165, '94 DB2 J #652, '99 DB4 #088, '08 VTX1800, '93 ZXR750R M1, '95 ZXR750, '95 ZXR750 Race Bike, '94 CBR400rr NC29 Race Bike, '94 CB250, '49 BSA C10 250, '61 BSA A10 650, '89 ZXR750, '91 Ducati 851
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2bims



Joined: 03 Apr 2010
Posts: 7289

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good to hear theres no problems Brian....you must be dying to receive your new pick-ups and hopefully finally get your Db4 running sweatly for perhaps the first time since you've owned it?? Shocked
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vort28



Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Posts: 2194
Location: Northwest , UK

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brian, you have persisted were many would have thrown in the towel by now Mad . I can only say that the DB4 is worth it , once fixed they are a great little bike and as its summer down your part of the world , it will keep you amused . Completely different to your 6 in many ways but has the same grin factor and is so much more than the sum of its parts . Mine always comes high on the list when I open the garage . Keep the faith . Laughing
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brian



Joined: 22 Aug 2011
Posts: 3769
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not gunna let it beat me Laughing

I've come this far and have definately learned a thing or two about Ducati's. It's a sweet thing to ride when it's on song.

I dug out my genuine workshop manual that you guys helped me source. It's an interesting read to say the least. Some of the translation needs to be translated so that I can understand it. Shocked

The electrical schematic has been helpful.

Thanks for the words of encouragement fellas
_________________
'99 DB4 #104, '96 SB6 #1165, '94 DB2 J #652, '99 DB4 #088, '08 VTX1800, '93 ZXR750R M1, '95 ZXR750, '95 ZXR750 Race Bike, '94 CBR400rr NC29 Race Bike, '94 CB250, '49 BSA C10 250, '61 BSA A10 650, '89 ZXR750, '91 Ducati 851
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deebee4



Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 266
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

brian wrote:
I'm not gunna let it beat me Laughing

I've come this far and have definately learned a thing or two about Ducati's. It's a sweet thing to ride when it's on song.

I dug out my genuine workshop manual that you guys helped me source. It's an interesting read to say the least. Some of the translation needs to be translated so that I can understand it. Shocked

The electrical schematic has been helpful.

Thanks for the words of encouragement fellas


Glad to read that you didn't give up.
About a wiring harnass problem: I had somewhat the same erratic running from around 7K rpm, which was very clearly showing on the dyno. I checked the wiring loom, iginition circuit and replaced every wire I could reach with 2,5 mm2 gauge wire. I did this wherever I could even if this meant pulling the wire out of the tube with all the other wires and out of the connectors. Since then (8 years ago) not the slightest running problem at all.
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brian



Joined: 22 Aug 2011
Posts: 3769
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I'm going to do the same. The green and yellow wires to the coils will be easy enough I think. A green also goes from the l/h coil (vertical cyl) up to the tachometer (which could be your problem 2bims).

The orange wires are common to both coils and the electrical schematic also shows the orange going up to the L/H switch gear. I can't find any orange wires at the large round connector that leads to the L/H switchgear. Do you know where the orange would go deebee?
_________________
'99 DB4 #104, '96 SB6 #1165, '94 DB2 J #652, '99 DB4 #088, '08 VTX1800, '93 ZXR750R M1, '95 ZXR750, '95 ZXR750 Race Bike, '94 CBR400rr NC29 Race Bike, '94 CB250, '49 BSA C10 250, '61 BSA A10 650, '89 ZXR750, '91 Ducati 851
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deebee4



Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 266
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brian wrote:
Yeah I'm going to do the same. The green and yellow wires to the coils will be easy enough I think. A green also goes from the l/h coil (vertical cyl) up to the tachometer (which could be your problem 2bims).

The orange wires are common to both coils and the electrical schematic also shows the orange going up to the L/H switch gear. I can't find any orange wires at the large round connector that leads to the L/H switchgear. Do you know where the orange would go deebee?


Hi Brian,

No ignition wires going to the LH switchgear. If there would be any ignition system wires going to the switchgear, then to the RH (cut out) switchgear.
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brian



Joined: 22 Aug 2011
Posts: 3769
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deebee4 wrote:
brian wrote:
Yeah I'm going to do the same. The green and yellow wires to the coils will be easy enough I think. A green also goes from the l/h coil (vertical cyl) up to the tachometer (which could be your problem 2bims).

The orange wires are common to both coils and the electrical schematic also shows the orange going up to the L/H switch gear. I can't find any orange wires at the large round connector that leads to the L/H switchgear. Do you know where the orange would go deebee?


Hi Brian,

No ignition wires going to the LH switchgear. If there would be any ignition system wires going to the switchgear, then to the RH (cut out) switchgear.


Hmm that's what I thought too. But the electrical schematic shows the orange wires going to the left. I'll check into it a bit more on Sunday when I'm home again. I dread having to strip out the harness but may have to do so to trace the wires.
_________________
'99 DB4 #104, '96 SB6 #1165, '94 DB2 J #652, '99 DB4 #088, '08 VTX1800, '93 ZXR750R M1, '95 ZXR750, '95 ZXR750 Race Bike, '94 CBR400rr NC29 Race Bike, '94 CB250, '49 BSA C10 250, '61 BSA A10 650, '89 ZXR750, '91 Ducati 851
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brian



Joined: 22 Aug 2011
Posts: 3769
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The translated Bimota manual has the L/H and R/H switch gear labeled in reverse. The orange wires do in fact go to the R/H switch gear. One wire to the kill switch and the other to the start button.
_________________
'99 DB4 #104, '96 SB6 #1165, '94 DB2 J #652, '99 DB4 #088, '08 VTX1800, '93 ZXR750R M1, '95 ZXR750, '95 ZXR750 Race Bike, '94 CBR400rr NC29 Race Bike, '94 CB250, '49 BSA C10 250, '61 BSA A10 650, '89 ZXR750, '91 Ducati 851
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brian



Joined: 22 Aug 2011
Posts: 3769
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All of the wiring appears to test ok. I suspect I'm still getting weak spark to the vertical cylinder. When i hook the timing light onto the horizontal cylinder plug wire it flashes perfectly, but when i hook the timing light onto the vertical cylinder plug wire it rarely flashes and over about 2000 rpm doesn't flash at all. The cylinder is definately firing (most of the time) as it seems to run ok (mostly) and the header pipe gets as hot as the other one.

I've swapped the ignition modules over and it's still the same. So i'm guessing the problem must be in the wiring but i can't find a fault.
_________________
'99 DB4 #104, '96 SB6 #1165, '94 DB2 J #652, '99 DB4 #088, '08 VTX1800, '93 ZXR750R M1, '95 ZXR750, '95 ZXR750 Race Bike, '94 CBR400rr NC29 Race Bike, '94 CB250, '49 BSA C10 250, '61 BSA A10 650, '89 ZXR750, '91 Ducati 851
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deebee4



Joined: 08 Jan 2011
Posts: 266
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

brian wrote:
All of the wiring appears to test ok. I suspect I'm still getting weak spark to the vertical cylinder. When i hook the timing light onto the horizontal cylinder plug wire it flashes perfectly, but when i hook the timing light onto the vertical cylinder plug wire it rarely flashes and over about 2000 rpm doesn't flash at all. The cylinder is definately firing (most of the time) as it seems to run ok (mostly) and the header pipe gets as hot as the other one.

I've swapped the ignition modules over and it's still the same. So i'm guessing the problem must be in the wiring but i can't find a fault.


Hi Brian, I agree that the problem must be in the wiring. The wire gauge is soooo thin (around 1 mm2) that during testing with a multimeter everything seems fine, but as soon as there's real current running through it fails intermittently. I did hesitate too at first before cutting the wiring loom open and taking out the wires of the ignition circuit.
But I wanted to make sure the wiring was not the cause of the problem (you could see the ignition collapsing at 7.000 rpm on te dyno, which was less noticable on track, where I just felt a lack of power), in the process of elimination of possible causes. I had the same error with the strobe light on one cylinder and the other was perfect.

Well it did pay off and gave me the chance to re-route the wiring loom so it stays cool (some spots it was very close to the hot engine parts and you could really feel the wiring loom heated up), because you know when wiring gets hot it creates more resistance. Also frame removal is made a lot easier, everything is nicely out of the way.

Just use 2,5 mm2 gauge multi core wire and use good connectors (I prefer AMP connectors), make sure they stay cool and don't make them too short. 2,5 mm2 seems to be over the top, but even if half of the tiny wires inside fail there's still enough to keep it working. At the coils I used simple (but good quality) crimp-on connectors and these work fine. About the coils: I rerouted te wiring loom so that the RH coil is now not covered by the wiring loom, I just like electric parts to stay cool. Wink
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brian



Joined: 22 Aug 2011
Posts: 3769
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply deebee. Did you replace the wires that go to the tachometer and r/h switched a too or just between the coils and ignition modules?
_________________
'99 DB4 #104, '96 SB6 #1165, '94 DB2 J #652, '99 DB4 #088, '08 VTX1800, '93 ZXR750R M1, '95 ZXR750, '95 ZXR750 Race Bike, '94 CBR400rr NC29 Race Bike, '94 CB250, '49 BSA C10 250, '61 BSA A10 650, '89 ZXR750, '91 Ducati 851
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brian



Joined: 22 Aug 2011
Posts: 3769
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I apologise if this thread is boring some of you guys but it's a good record of what I've done and what I haven't if nothing else.

So here's where I'm at...

I removed the wiring harness, opened it up and checked for obvious faults but didn't find anything. I replaced all of the wiring between the ignition modules, coils and switch gear including the wire to the tach. Replaced a few connectors and generally checked and tidied up the harness. Put it back all back together and the bike runs exactly the same Embarassed

Before I removed the harness I also stripped, cleaned and put dielectric grease in the ignition switch as I suspect it wasn't giving good continuity sometimes.

So I've pretty much got the same problem as I think I've had right from the start... Weak spark. When I out a timing light on the plug leads it only fires some times. I've tested the timing light on other bikes and it fires perfectly.


_________________
'99 DB4 #104, '96 SB6 #1165, '94 DB2 J #652, '99 DB4 #088, '08 VTX1800, '93 ZXR750R M1, '95 ZXR750, '95 ZXR750 Race Bike, '94 CBR400rr NC29 Race Bike, '94 CB250, '49 BSA C10 250, '61 BSA A10 650, '89 ZXR750, '91 Ducati 851
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