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DB2 lithium battery

 
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barnmankit



Joined: 23 Nov 2014
Posts: 97
Location: Pyrenees, France

PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:54 pm    Post subject: DB2 lithium battery Reply with quote

Good afternoon fellow Bimotisti, can anyone recommend a good Li-Ion battery for my 1998 DB2 ef? As I live in France I think it would have to come from a mainland Europe supplier. I have heard and read so many stories/myths about these batteries not working with older generation charging systems that I would really like info from someone using one, or personal knowledge thereof.
Also, if anyone has a European spec projector headlight for this bike I would be interested in buying one (or exchange for my UK spec original headlight). Thanks in advance for any replies and a good weekend to all. Kit
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1998 Bimota DB2 edizione finale naked
1976 BMW R75/6 tractor (for sale)
ICE recumbent trike
A shed full of bicycles

"We're each given one small grain of madness - if we lose it, we're nothing." Robin Williams
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Quadrasuarass



Joined: 23 Aug 2013
Posts: 82
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ultrabatt from the Netherlands - they have hardware built in to work with old style rectifier/regulators.

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipOgOTYuhCACvnFzgqqMlaPFEIyen5zXm3jPy_k

Headlights were common to FZR400/600 Yamahas of the day, also MZ Scorpion of all things.
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Jonny B Bad



Joined: 05 Dec 2009
Posts: 555
Location: NE London

PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:04 pm    Post subject: Lithium batteries Reply with quote

I’ve been using Lithium batteries for more than 10 years, with the oldest bike being a 1990 YB8. Because we’re all dinosaurs at heart, we’re only interested in the advantages over lead acid and other than that we want to imagine that we can treat lithium just like we used to treat lead acid. The headline pros & cons are well known: much lighter and smaller, minimal self-discharge, very expensive & likely to catastrophically self-combust if over-charged due to a failed regulator.

The reality is that lithium is a completely different technology. There are clues that this is the case: I’ve just started a bike that’s been over-wintering for 3 months - it turned over really strongly and started on the second go. But if I’d tried to start the bike a fortnight earlier, when it was much colder, I would have needed many more goes and the battery wouldn’t have turned the motor with anything like the same enthusiasm. When it’s cold, lithium needs a draw, e.g. headlight for 5 minutes, to get it warmed up, before trying to start.

The other thing to know about lithium technology is that each battery comprises 4 cells which do not necessarily charge equally either on the bike or with a ‘clips on terminals’ charger. Charging of a lithium battery stops when some of the four cells are fully charged - 3.60 volts. Those cells which have not reached 3.60 volts do not get any further charge. Over a number of charging cycles the voltage disparity between cells increases. Initially this will only marginally reduce the aggregate voltage of the battery down from its maximum of 4 x 3.60 volts = 14.4 volts and you probably won’t notice any reduction in performance. But ultimately the disparity in voltages between cells can lead to one cell becoming excessively discharged and then your expensive battery is junk. The issue of balancing cells is dealt with in different ways by different manufacturers. My first lithium batteries, made by Ballistic of the US (now dissolved), had a port into which a charger with a balance charging mode was plugged. I still have these batteries and they all still work, more than 10 years down the line. Shorai have a similar system, with a port on the battery for their intelligent charger to balance the cells. What I liked about the Ballistic charger was that it would tell you the voltage on each of the 4 cells. The Shorai doesn’t tell you the voltage of the individual cells, it just tells you when the balance charging process is complete. MotoBatt say that the balancing circuitry is in the battery and therefore you just attach a lithium charger to the terminals of the battery. I like this idea, because it should ensure that the cells don’t get out of balance when the battery is being charged by the bike’s charging system. However, you’ve got to take MotoBatt’s word for it, as there is no port on the battery to allow you to see the voltages of the individual cells. Finally, there are lithium batteries that ignore cell balancing (no port/no circuitry within) that give the headline benefits of lithium, at a lower price on a ‘fit and forget’ basis.

This is a classic ‘you pays your money and you takes your choice’. The imperative for me is that I’ve got the best chance of starting my bike in all conditions, so I want a battery that I can balance charge, with a charger that will indicate the voltages of each cell.

For those readers who haven’t lost the will to live several paragraphs ago, there is another twist that illustrates that my desire to see the voltages on each cell is not just a personal OCD. When the cells get profoundly out of balance, several cycles of balance charging may not bring them back into sync. The Ballistic charger (which, in reality, is only a re-badged charger for radio controlled car batteries) also has a discharge mode, which will discharge the 4 cells until they are at the same voltage. I can then switch to balance charge mode and each cell will then get back to 3.60 volts. Whether the profound imbalance implies that the battery is getting towards the end of its life I can’t judge - it certainly would be heralding the end if un-addressed - but I’ve yet to dispose of a lithium bike battery.

One piece of advice I would give to a buyer of a lithium battery is do not be guided by what the seller says will be ‘alright’ for your bike. Buy the battery with the highest CCA (cold cranking amps) compatible with the size of your battery box. The ability of lithium batteries is impaired by the cold, so compensate for that by getting the strongest one you can.

Finally, I was talking to a bike shop owner the other day and he said that he’s had so much come-back on lithium batteries from buyers for whom “it’s a battery Mate, and an expensive one at that, and I know what a battery should do” that he won’t sell them anymore, having concluded that they’re “not suitable” for use on bikes.
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barnmankit



Joined: 23 Nov 2014
Posts: 97
Location: Pyrenees, France

PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you both for your replies, between you you've given me all the info I need. The Ultrabatt looks good, they have a new one equivalent to a 16Ah lead acid with 300A cca for about 150 euros, and only 0.85kg. They say that it incorporates all the charging protection electronics etc.
Your info is invaluable, Jonny, thanks for enlightening me. One possible problem is that my bike has Keihin FCRs and so no choke, only the accelerator pumps for cold starting, so cold mornings can be a problem (although I live up a hill and have 1.5km potentially to bump start on!). Having said that the bike is only really used in warm weather. I'm off-grid with solar panels and a fairly sophisticated 12v regulator, so that ought to take care of battery tending in the winter.
I'll post an update in the coming months if I go down this route.
Take care and vive les Bimotas !
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1998 Bimota DB2 edizione finale naked
1976 BMW R75/6 tractor (for sale)
ICE recumbent trike
A shed full of bicycles

"We're each given one small grain of madness - if we lose it, we're nothing." Robin Williams
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Jonny B Bad



Joined: 05 Dec 2009
Posts: 555
Location: NE London

PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:49 pm    Post subject: DB2 Lithium Battery Reply with quote

For a big twin with flatslides without an enriched starting circuit, a lithium battery is great, because it will give many more goes at starting, before giving up, than a lead acid will.

Good luck!
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brian



Joined: 22 Aug 2011
Posts: 3769
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ve had two bad experiences with lithium batteries. Not really the fault of the battery, both due to the bikes regulator failing and over charging the battery.

I’m one of those who are not a fan of using lithium batteries on older bikes with dodgy charging systems
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'99 DB4 #104, '96 SB6 #1165, '94 DB2 J #652, '99 DB4 #088, '08 VTX1800, '93 ZXR750R M1, '95 ZXR750, '95 ZXR750 Race Bike, '94 CBR400rr NC29 Race Bike, '94 CB250, '49 BSA C10 250, '61 BSA A10 650, '89 ZXR750, '91 Ducati 851
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welshlamb



Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 592
Location: South Wales , Nr. Abergavenny

PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that older gen erator and reg/recifiers can cause issues with lithium batteries. The acceptable voltage regulation (seen as average voltage on most meters) and in particular 'ripple voltage' seems to be the issue. The reg rectifier detailed below is suposedly specifically designed for lithium batteries.

https://rmstator.com/en_ww/lithium-ion-batteries-compatible-mosfet-voltage-regulator-rectifier-for-atv-utv-motorcycle-snowmobile-pwc-scooter

sounds plausible?
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Anders



Joined: 05 May 2009
Posts: 121
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

welshlamb wrote:
I agree that older gen erator and reg/recifiers can cause issues with lithium batteries. The acceptable voltage regulation (seen as average voltage on most meters) and in particular 'ripple voltage' seems to be the issue. The reg rectifier detailed below is suposedly specifically designed for lithium batteries.

https://rmstator.com/en_ww/lithium-ion-batteries-compatible-mosfet-voltage-regulator-rectifier-for-atv-utv-motorcycle-snowmobile-pwc-scooter

sounds plausible?


RMstator states that their regulator is for Lithium ion batteries.

here is another option, for LiFePo4 batteries:

https://cs-batteries.de/Elektronischer-Mosfet-Spannungsregler-Gleichrichter-fuer-Drehstrom-Lichtmaschinen-und-LiFePo4-Batterien

The main difference between these two is the charging voltage, as far as I can understand. That makes sense if they are for different battery technologies. I am considering the latter for the A123-based LiFePo4 battery in my bb1.
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bb1, Mille S2, Guzzi / Watsonian, Morini Corsaro 125, EC200, RD350YPVS etc
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polyesterpig



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 76
Location: California USA

PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had good luck with WPS featherweight lithium batteries in my bikes. No issues and have had them a couple years now.
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barnmankit



Joined: 23 Nov 2014
Posts: 97
Location: Pyrenees, France

PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you all for your replies. At the moment it seems that there is no definitive answer whether the original charging system - specifically the voltage regulator - is compatible with lithium batteries, and obviously this is the critical point. I suppose to be safe it's best to change to a lithium specific regulator at the same time, as the thought of a battery fire beneath the fuel tank is distinctly at odds with riding enjoyment. I will send an email to a couple of battery suppliers to see if their in-built electronics give enough protection.
Watch this space and appreciate all your input!
Kit
_________________
1998 Bimota DB2 edizione finale naked
1976 BMW R75/6 tractor (for sale)
ICE recumbent trike
A shed full of bicycles

"We're each given one small grain of madness - if we lose it, we're nothing." Robin Williams
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brian



Joined: 22 Aug 2011
Posts: 3769
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

barnmankit wrote:
Thank you all for your replies. At the moment it seems that there is no definitive answer whether the original charging system - specifically the voltage regulator - is compatible with lithium batteries, and obviously this is the critical point. I suppose to be safe it's best to change to a lithium specific regulator at the same time, as the thought of a battery fire beneath the fuel tank is distinctly at odds with riding enjoyment. I will send an email to a couple of battery suppliers to see if their in-built electronics give enough protection.
Watch this space and appreciate all your input!
Kit


I for one will be interested to hear what you find out and how you get on Wink
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'99 DB4 #104, '96 SB6 #1165, '94 DB2 J #652, '99 DB4 #088, '08 VTX1800, '93 ZXR750R M1, '95 ZXR750, '95 ZXR750 Race Bike, '94 CBR400rr NC29 Race Bike, '94 CB250, '49 BSA C10 250, '61 BSA A10 650, '89 ZXR750, '91 Ducati 851
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Bud977



Joined: 03 Mar 2013
Posts: 525
Location: Sydney

PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use lithium batteries in many of my bikes, whether road, race or dirt bikes. I find them the best thing since sliced bread. Light weight, no need to trickle charge, great cold cranking, quick recharge.

I tend to use a local brand - SSB Powersports. From their brochure, they state that their batteries cannot catch fire under normal conditions, and they use normal chargers. Sounds good.

Maybe I've just been lucky, but I have never had a problem with a lithium battery, and I've got 6 bikes with them in them at the moment. All have their OEM charging sytem, apart from the race bikes with a total loss system. They've eliminated all the problems of having multiple bikes of irregular use and batteries going flat.

Lead acid batteries seem more finicky these days in staying fully charged. I've had lead acid not holding charge from new, or ones that only last a year or two. Since fitting lithiums, I haven't had one lithium battery reach the end of its life yet.

I'm going to keep using lithium as I love their reliability.

Ultra Light Weight - 1/3 of normal lead-acid battery
Powerful Cranking Power
Extra Long Life - Over 2000 cycles compared to 200 - 300 cycles for a lead-acid battery.
Extremely Quick Recharge Time - Can be recharged with 10C current and be 90% recharged within 6 minutes.
Safe to Use - The battery cannot explode or catch fire under normal operating conditions.
Long Shelf Life - The battery can sit unused for over a year without loosing charge.
Uses Normal 12V Car Chargers - It is one of the only Lithium Batteries that can be charged using normal 12V car battery chargers / alternators.
Dry Cell Battery - No leaks or spills
100% Organic - Fully recyclable and pollution free, making them an excellent green energy source.
High Energy Efficiency - Higher voltage resulting in a boost in performance and better fuel efficiency.
Made with Prismatic Cells - Not cylindrical cells
[/b]
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barnmankit



Joined: 23 Nov 2014
Posts: 97
Location: Pyrenees, France

PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks bud for posting your real-world experiences. I shall definitely be going the li-ion route for all the reasons you've listed; lead-acid is beginning to look pretty archaic now. Not just yet though - winter here is biting back and the bike won't be going out for a month or so. I hope your autumn is good down there.
Thanks for all these replies, Kit.
_________________
1998 Bimota DB2 edizione finale naked
1976 BMW R75/6 tractor (for sale)
ICE recumbent trike
A shed full of bicycles

"We're each given one small grain of madness - if we lose it, we're nothing." Robin Williams
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delirio1100



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a bunch of bikes, in nine of them I am using JMT LiFePO4 batteries for almost 10 years.
These are bikes from the 70s, 80s, 90s and 00s, 2-6 cylinders. I don't need 0° C cranking power as I only ride when it's nice and warm.
So far no problem, I even use a standart 12V/1A powersupply for mantenance charging via a timer for 2 hours per day on every bike.
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